MMOs Designed to please players are doomed to fail!

[Schwa]

Thank you for your valuable contribution.

"doomed to fail" instantly discredits any post. Even I, in my infinite criticism of this game, have not said this game is doomed to fail. I've said it has one hell of an uphill battle, it is an unfinished design and lacks support of the other Trion but not that it is doomed.

Why? No MMO is doomed to fail. Outside of the F2P scene, few major releases actually fail. Most hemorrhage players at some point, and many have rocky launches. Some have trouble staying afloat and switch to F2P.

But the only ones that "fail" are the ones that close because their publisher/developer went bankrupt. I absolutely don't want to see that happen to Trion, and I have no reason to anticipate that happening. They have a strong portfolio of upcoming titles (not that I'll touch them at launch after Defiance) coming up, along with Rift (which I have sealed and will not return to because of Defiance).

Defiance is just a bad dream, really, and in need of substantial changes to prevent a catastrophic loss of players so early in its lifetime. I don't personally agree with all of the changes he's thinking about, but I'm interested in seeing what he does with them-- as long as this remains a TPS and not an RPG. While some obviously won't like the changes that do make it in, that doesn't change the fact that changes are necessary after the critical reception of this game (laugh if you like, still relevant) and the player's typical reactions after 2000+ ego.

[MacDeath]

No, there are MILLION of ways to design MMORPGs (they are more complex than any other game type by 100000.. even ape can design some linear stuff... whats most of the game industry) so better to hear what players has to say so the gap between players and developers doesnt grow too wide.

As for Defiance, I think its just great, this genre is finally moving forward to different kind of games.

I quite agree that devs should listen to the players... I don't think it's wise to give the players everything they ask for. Dev's need to apply some thought to WHY players ask for what they want. IF, what the player's ask for is long term bad, is there a better way, that's good for the long term of the game to provide what they want?

I used to be a consultant to gaming companies. I encouraged them to survey the player base to see what players liked / disliked about current / proposed features. But I would NEVER advocate giving the players control of over all design.

[Schwa]

I quite agree that devs should listen to the players... I don't think it's wise to give the players everything they ask for. Dev's need to apply some thought to WHY players ask for what they want. IF, what the player's ask for is long term bad, is there a better way, that's good for the long term of the game to provide what they want?

I used to be a consultant to gaming companies. I encouraged them to survey the player base to see what players liked / disliked about current / proposed features. But I would NEVER advocate giving the players control of over all design.

You realize that entire post today could be taken as appearing to give the players control, but actually following through on a design they had been considering anyway?

I find it difficult to entertain the thought Trion, with all its industry veterans, thought the design of the current game was a good idea. There are plenty of design potholes -- still unpaved -- that would just be too easy for them to miss as far back as alpha.

[MacDeath]

Thank you for your valuable contribution.

"doomed to fail" instantly discredits any post. Even I, in my infinite criticism of this game, have not said this game is doomed to fail. I've said it has one hell of an uphill battle, it is an unfinished design and lacks support of the other Trion but not that it is doomed.

Why? No MMO is doomed to fail. Outside of the F2P scene, few major releases actually fail. Most hemorrhage players at some point, and many have rocky launches. Some have trouble staying afloat and switch to F2P.

But the only ones that "fail" are the ones that close because their publisher/developer went bankrupt. I absolutely don't want to see that happen to Trion, and I have no reason to anticipate that happening. They have a strong portfolio of upcoming titles (not that I'll touch them at launch after Defiance) coming up, along with Rift (which I have sealed and will not return to because of Defiance).

Defiance is just a bad dream, really, and in need of substantial changes to prevent a catastrophic loss of players so early in its lifetime. I don't personally agree with all of the changes he's thinking about, but I'm interested in seeing what he does with them-- as long as this remains a TPS and not an RPG. While some obviously won't like the changes that do make it in, that doesn't change the fact that changes are necessary after the critical reception of this game (laugh if you like, still relevant) and the player's typical reactions after 2000+ ego.

I never said that Defiance is doomed to fail. I said that ANY mmo will fail if it's designed to give players exactly what they ask for. Why do I believe that? Because most players ask for features that are in fact bad for the long term of the game. I pointed to an article by Richard Bartle who wrote (back in 2004, just before WoW launched) why he thought the devs shouldn't try to please all of the players all of the time.

[Fiancee]

I quite agree that devs should listen to the players... I don't think it's wise to give the players everything they ask for. Dev's need to apply some thought to WHY players ask for what they want. IF, what the player's ask for is long term bad, is there a better way, that's good for the long term of the game to provide what they want?

I used to be a consultant to gaming companies. I encouraged them to survey the player base to see what players liked / disliked about current / proposed features. But I would NEVER advocate giving the players control of over all design.

Hmm, it depends... if you think long term strategy it'd be best just do what players want so most likely they buy your next game. Come on, we all can agree Defiance is not going to grow much from here, it probably survives (all notable MMOs survives these days even TSW.. hell even Darkfall.) and remains a healthy population. Titan, Elder Scroll Online, thats where the hype train is headed.

[Schwa]

I never said that Defiance is doomed to fail. I said that ANY mmo will fail if it's designed to give players exactly what they ask for. Why do I believe that? Because most players ask for features that are in fact bad for the long term of the game. I pointed you to an article by Richard Bartle who wrote (back in 2004, just before WoW launched) why he thought the devs shouldn't try to please all of the players all of the time.

Yes, yes. I've read it before; it's posted all over the freaking place.

That said, I'm more of the opinion if a developer lacks the sense to know when to ignore its playerbase, then a game deserves to collapse. They shouldn't be at the helm in the first place, yes?

I feel like I've fallen into some strange parallel dimension where I'm telling you to have a little faith. I suppose what I'm really doing is giving Trion rope to hang themselves with-- they can hang themselves with their choices or they can make something cool. It's all on them.

Change is on the wind; that much is an inevitability. Some people won't like this.

I suppose on a positive note (positive for me) they've already hit rock bottom. Can only go up from here, right?

[Anderson]

After many years of reading people whine on the internet, I can confirm that "the fans" of pretty much any product are complete morons with ridiculous senses of entitlement who don't really know what they want and will never be happy.

[MacDeath]

Yes, yes. I've read it before; it's posted all over the freaking place.

That said, I'm more of the opinion if a developer lacks the sense to know when to ignore its playerbase, then a game deserves to collapse. They shouldn't be at the helm in the first place, yes?

I feel like I've fallen into some strange parallel dimension where I'm telling you to have a little faith. I suppose what I'm really doing is giving Trion rope to hang themselves with-- they can hang themselves with their choices or they can make something cool. It's all on them.

I suppose on a positive note (positive for me) they've already hit rock bottom. Can only go up from here, right?

Whoop! Another place where we can agree! It's up to Trion to make the right choices. I suspect they will make more right choices than wrong and they will improve the game. There is certainly room for improvement, but it takes time. I suspect Nathan is trying to buy some time by asking the players (well, really the forumites) to help priortize the path ahead.

[khanstruct]

I have Bartle's book, "Designing Virtual Worlds". It is easily one of the best design books I have ever read. That guy knew what he was talking about. Thanks for the post.

[Rasczak]

After many years of reading people whine on the internet, I can confirm that "the fans" of pretty much any product are complete morons with ridiculous senses of entitlement who don't really know what they want and will never be happy.

I'm glad to see someone admit that about themselves, since inevitably you, too, are a fan of some product out there.