No new nerfs!

[Shogo_Yahagi]

These nerfs have already been seen by a large number of older, experienced gamers as nothing short of "PvP playability at the expense of PvE enjoyment". This is a mantra that I have seen repeated over and over on several gaming forums where older gamers review games in their own ways (not metacritic type sites). This is the reputation that Defiance is putting forward.. that WE are a PvP-Centric game. This game is NOT PvP-Centric, and shouldn't have this reputation thrust upon it by being constantly nerfed (or balanced) for PvP at the sake and reduction of PvE playability. Doing this will reduce the ability to call in new, long term players in short order. What you as developers do to this game is how the reputation will proceed, and with that in mind...

Quoted for truth. Trion needs to stop screwing up PvE to accommodate PvP.

[Spruence]

I am of the opinion that nerfs suck. For instance, if shotguns are too overpowered, then buff everything else to their level. Problem fixed, and no nerfs. If the PVE enemies are too weak because the weapons are too strong, then buff the enemies!

[PseudoCool]

This is how I see the problem unfolding, and maybe people aren't seeing it this way, so maybe, just maybe, this will help:

Let's look at the CLASS of weapons and keep it very generic so that it's not anything weapon specific:

An AR does 222 dmg, RoF @ 12, Range damage decreases after 30m, reload time of 2.2 seconds
A combat shotgun does 400 dmg, RoF @ 4, Range dam decreases after 10m, reload time of 4 seconds
A pump shotty does 500 dmg, RoF @2.5, Range damage decreases after 10m, reload time of 4.5 seconds
A double barrel does 1919 dmg, RoF 0.9, Range damage decreases after 3m, reload time of 5 seconds
A LMG does 355 dmg, RoF @ 10, Range damage decreases after 25m, reload time of 4 seconds

Anyone see where this is going?

It's a Balancing Act: If a weapon does more damage, then the RoF and range are LOWER, and the reload times are longer. This is how every gun in Defiance is put together. A weapon thus becomes very situational. Because of this, nerfing weapons for PvP balance is a farce. The weapons are ALREADY BALANCED when using this standard, which is what Defiance does. When a single weapon does not fall into this framework, then that individual weapon needs to be looked at and adjusted, not the whole class of weapons nerfed.

What we have seen so far is whole weapons classes nerfed for the sake of PvP, and that's already making many weapons totally useless in PvE. Some of them where pretty close to useless as it was before the last 2 rounds of nerfs. The Flare gun comes to mind. The problem is that some people find a good Flavor of the Week build (currently cloak + courier) and then the people who get fragged constantly get on the forums and complain that the weapon is too overpowered. They don't look at the entire stats of the weapon, nor how limited the situational use is.. all they see is themselves being face planted over and over again by the same weak tactics and strategy employed by their competition. Pretty sad actually.

Instead of new nerfs, the game needs more PvP maps opened up and running. For example, and maybe it's just my experience.. but I don't see alot of cloak+courier combo players running around in Shadow Wars where it's wide open spaces, instead it's Overcharge + LMG combo's all over. That may just be my experiences with it however.

[Schwa]

I am going to make an assumption here, and you can argue the counter if you want; From what i have seen through your posting on this forums you see yourself as an accomplished gamer that enjoys defiance, and doesn't see it as to difficult.

This being your mentality, I know there are many players who cannot say the same. I have spoken with players that feel the game is all together to hard, from hotshots and races all the way to storyline missions. Saying every weapon is overpowered for PvE is also assuming that the person wielding such a weapon has a large amount of awareness, and skill.

I know it is a balancing act, but currently I feel they have done a very good job. I am worried about the upcoming nerfs they feel are necessary because this game is new. With a new game a level of ignorance is involved and it takes any community time to find what works well and what counters such a build.

Shotguns themselves are not an issue, moving fullspeed and even potentially at 45% increased speed while stealthed is a large problem.

The developers are coming at this as if it's an issue that can be solved with a nerf, rather than an issue that can be solved with some necessary tweaking.

These tweaks could be as simple as decoy's breaking stealth for the duration (Think sonar), overpower increasing damage resistance, and/or blur leaving a longer trail of fake versions of yourself. These changes would positively effect PvE(Not making it more difficult, and only minimally easier), and hopefully do the same for PvP.

You misread me on one critical point: while I do have (borderline embarassing) experience with the MMORPG genre, I am not particularly adept at shooters. I enjoy certain shooters, namely Arma 2/3 ACE precisely because I am bad at them. Arma, in particular, is so far above my level it's an idkwutimdoinlol scenario, which is fun for completely different reasons than just a typical "power fantasy" game.

The fact that I, personally, am able to breeze through Defiance is embarrassing. With my limited shooter experience, I shouldn't be able to handle the game as easily as I do, yet I find myself swapping to "stupid" loadouts just to preserve some degree of amusement/spontaneity/challenge.

Bulwark vs sawed-off shotgun? Okay. Hell of a lot more interesting than Bulwark vs. AR. What perks am I using? Haven't bothered to look for days. Let's make a BMG/launcher loadout. Perks? Ain't got no time for that.

Just don't take me as a LEET MASTUR GAEMR. While I have done some Big Stuff before, I do know when I should be in over my head. By all accounts I should be in over my head in at least some of the co-op, or when using a truly awful combination (bmg/launcher carried me through much of the Sanfran storyline... somehow) but nothing provides a co-op level of difficulty, even in the traditional mainstream TPS co-op level of difficulty (which I never dare go above "normal" difficulty.) In comparison, Defiance is, quite absolutely, stuck on "easy" co-op.

The issue with Shotguns from the dev side, I imagine, is just how many people are using them. Seeing even 30% of the PVP matches with shotgun on loadouts would be cause for concern, especially when there are so many other weapon types in the game. I'd wager the developers see a much higher percentage, which is why we have been told a nerf is imminent.

If nerfing sawed-off shotgun for PVP means I can't solo bulwarks in PVE with a sawed-off shotgun-- I really can't complain. That just made no freaking sense in the first place.

[PseudoCool]

You misread me on one critical point: while I do have (borderline embarassing) experience with the MMORPG genre, I am not particularly adept at shooters. I enjoy certain shooters, namely Arma 2/3 ACE precisely because I am bad at them.

The fact that I, personally, am able to breeze through Defiance is embarrassing. With my limited shooter experience, I shouldn't be able to handle the game as easily as I do, yet I find myself swapping to "stupid" loadouts just to preserve some degree of amusement.

Bulwark vs sawed-off shotgun? Okay. Hell of a lot more interesting than Bulwark vs. AR. What perks am I using? Haven't bothered to look for days.

Just don't take me as a LEET MASTUR GAEMR. While I have done some Big Stuff before, I know when I should be in over my head. By all accounts I should be in over my head in co-op, but nothing provides a co-op level of difficulty, even in the traditional mainstream TPS co-op level of difficulty (which I never dare go above "normal" difficulty.)

The issue with Shotguns from the dev side, I imagine, is just how many people are using them. Seeing even 30% of the PVP matches with shotgun on loadouts would be cause for concern, especially when there are so many other weapon types in the game. I'd wager the developers see a much higher percentage, which is why we have been told a nerf is imminent.

Now see.. gameplay wise.. I'm in the same boat. I've got a LOT of mmoRPG experience, but limited experience with shooters other than C&C: Renegade and Ghost Recon.

And like yourself.. I'm generally trying things I KNOW I shouldn't be able to do. Rush in with an Immunizer on a whole emergency of scrappers? Sure thing! (face planted twice btw.. the flying ones get me when they flip over into turret mode).. But yes, there ARE some things in the game that you shouldn't be able to do (Bulwarks vs. Combat Shotgun with Syphon for instance) with ease or proper tactics. Oh, but wait.. that's right.. we're RPG players.. we LOVE TACTICS! Seriously.. we're not just about the run-n-gun.. we're sizing up our area of fight, we're looking for the best extract path if we need it, and we're sizing up the enemy BEFORE we even draw our sights up. Or maybe that's the Ghost Recon player in me talking.. who knows..

However.. the issue with shotguns being so over-used in PvP matches (not in Shadow Wars, but the others) is because those maps perfectly fit the situational use of the Courier.. and I mean PERFECTLY. You couldn't ask for a better load out than cloak + courier for most of the maps in team combat. Now in Shadow Wars.. it may work still.. but it's not the eating machine that it is in those cargo containers.. not even close...

[Pyth]

They need to butcher the infectors, particularly the Immunizer.

And I may be in the minority here on this one, but cloak needs to looked at again. Never in my gaming life have I seen a game with such an awesome cloak. Near perfect invisibility, shield regeneration and a damage bonus. Imo, it needs to be a la Crysis style. No damage bonus, you need to be extremely vulnerable when you're cloaked and your movement speed needs to be reduced. Cloak is for getting yourself out of trouble, bypassing defenses or setting up ambushes. This would also push back the shotguns by default.

But I don't want to see any nerfs effect the PvE side of the game. They need to figure out a system where the PvP and the PvE are seperate and unroll the nerfs they've previously done. Not to mention buff a few deserving weapons.

[Schwa]

However.. the issue with shotguns being so over-used in PvP matches (not in Shadow Wars, but the others) is because those maps perfectly fit the situational use of the Courier.. and I mean PERFECTLY. You couldn't ask for a better load out than cloak + courier for most of the maps in team combat. Now in Shadow Wars.. it may work still.. but it's not the eating machine that it is in those cargo containers.. not even close...

I understand this completely, and in shadow wars Infector becomes the lolnoob weapon (due to lolaim-- see the sig).

That aside, though, I can see why the devs would want to encourage players to consider weapons other than shotgun. I wouldn't expect them to be so open about their intentions to nerf shotguns if the matches weren't so heavily shotgun-based-- they'd want to at least encourage players to head up to the roof to snipe or off to the corner to pull out an AR to even out the metrics.

While I don't discount the terrain of those maps causing them to be pro-shotgun, I can't deny there are other opportunities on that map players are ignoring because shotguns are the "easy choice." Metrics would show this. It simply needs to be a less easy choice.

[IGears]

I understand this completely, and in shadow wars Infector becomes the lolnoob weapon (due to lolaim-- see the sig).

That aside, though, I can see why the devs would want to encourage players to consider weapons other than shotgun. I wouldn't expect them to be so open about their intentions to nerf shotguns if the matches weren't so heavily shotgun-based-- they'd want to at least encourage players to head up to the roof to snipe or off to the corner to pull out an AR to even out the metrics.

While I don't discount the terrain of those maps causing them to be pro-shotgun, I can't deny there are other opportunities on that map players are ignoring because shotguns are the "easy choice." Metrics would show this. It simply needs to be a less easy choice.

there are tons of shooters that can get the shotgun right in PvP... why can't this game get it.

[Ichidakiller]

In the podcast with sledgehammer he stated there is an incoming nerf for shotgun that the magsize one was unintentional.

They are doing this for pvp purposes.
Shotguns in pvp are way over overpowered in pvp.
The problem with buffing other guns is that they have a tendency to cause unexpected consequences. While I agree that pve should not be effected by pvp in any way shape or form. Something gas to be done about the shotgun/cloak.

To anyone that says its fine. One simple thing when ever you go into pvp and realize that 75% are running the same combo that is a sign of clear non balanced pvp.

They should do something about bringing the other guns up to par and give stealth an predator like silhouette. That silhouette gets more pronounced the closer you get.
No reason a person that is invisible should be able to stand right in front of you and not have a chance to be seen. Hey if the person fails to see them that's there bad. Faster they move more pronounced it is.

That would tone down the stealth

[Schwa]

there are tons of shooters that can get the shotgun right in PvP... why can't this game get it.

I welcome their attempts at getting shotgun right. But not at the expense of the other guns, especially the ones requiring aim. Actual aim, not that infector auto-aim ********.