Increase boss difficulty please.

[Dave Blackwell]

Totally disagree, and here's why.

The progression through the main mission sequence gates access to the side missions and, in the case of San Francisco, entire areas of the game world. Sure, there are ways around not being able to get into Frisco, but basically if you got stuck trying to fight the psychotic game designer who created Jackleg then you were blocked from access to half the game. If you happen to be an elitist a-hole, then I'm sure the idea that "lesser" gamers can't get to some content doesn't bother you, but if you actually want this game to succeed then it needs to appeal to more than just the elitist gamers.

So, while the game continues to block content based on completing an arbitrary, badly designed, sadistic set of quests which some people perceive as challenging, then I say "Hell No!" to "harder bosses." If those "harder bosses" are on side missions, optional content, where they belong, then you can have all the hard bosses you want and you can sit in a corner with them and have a love in.

I take exception to the use of the world "challenging" for these two. Jackleg Joe is simply badly designed. Nim is a brain-numbing grind, but at least you don't get told to start all over again if you make one mistake. If those are "challenging" then... Yeah. No comment.

I actually agree with both you and the OP. How about instead of increasing and/or decreasing the difficulty for everyone and leaving no one any alternative options in regards to how approach these boss fights. Why not have it set that it's possible to opt. in to help other players out? Similar to how the CO-OPs work, but having a reasonable limit on the amount of players so as to ensure at least some level of difficulty and not to take entirely away from the challenge of the scenario.

Not only would this, if it was implemented, encourage a more active community within all platforms of the game. It would also keep almost everyone happy; those who want a more active community, those that are stuck on certain boss fights (It would reduce the 'Nim ruined the game for me' type threads for future boss fights) and it means that there would still be a relative challenge at the same time.

Me personally? I openly welcome more challenging enemies, but you do have to take into consideration that not everyone will have the same views as yourself so compromise when it comes to these sort of things is essential so as not to do a disfavour to everyone else.

[Tharcion]

@Tharcion

I'm assuming that by 'sadistic' you mean 'took me more than one try', and by 'starting all over again' you mean having to attempt the boss again, since you don't have to redo the level.

Wrong.

Jackleg's mission sequence is a three phase thing; defeat mattocks, drop Joe's shield, kill Joe.
Nim also has a phased mission sequence. I don't remember the phases, but there are three or four of varying difficulty.

If Nim kills you during a phase, you restart at the beginning of that phase. You feel as though you are making progress even if you end up having to give up. (Honestly, this is conjecture. Nim was easy, not challenging. I went through him without ever having to restart a level.)

Jackleg Jo was designed by a sadist. Fail at any point and the game kicks you back to stage 1. If you have Joe in one hit point and you die, you have to start again. This is disillusioning. You yell and scream, and call the designer's mother cruel things. Mostly you want to give up, which I did, for a month. I did, however, keep playing the game and I got better, and now I can beat Joe.

Here's an idea. They can make the bosses challenging, for people who like that kind of thing, and they can add an 'I Win' button to automatically win the fight, for those of you who don't. Then everybody's happy.

Yeah, that's the argument of the kind of elitist gamer I was talking about. The kind of person who wants Defiance to fade into obscurity and die.

You stopped reading my post after the first word, right? You aren't interested in reasoned argument, just in impuning the manhood of anyone who disagrees with you.

Like I said, make some tough bosses. Make them optional. You guys with your strange desire for "challenge" can have more of it than you could ever want. The rest of the universe can continue with what exists. I'm not saying anything should be nerfed; Hell, why would I say that, I already beat it? However, if you make he game more "challenging" then you'll eventually run out of people willing to pay to be blocked from most of the content.

[Finish the Fight]

I don't think separate difficulty modes are gonna fly in an MMO, but I would be perfectly happy just having some difficult side missions or DLC content.

I really don't understand why some people want every fight to be easy, but hey maybe I'm the crazy one for not wanting everything to be handed to me.

Separate difficulty modes have already proven very popular in MMOs. WarCraft is a perfect example. Granted WoW is a RPGMMO, it manage to bridge the gap between casual and hardcore gamers with these types of options.

[Glacian]

Jackleg's mission sequence is a three phase thing; defeat mattocks, drop Joe's shield, kill Joe.

I never really considered it to be three phases. I think it would be silly to start over with his shield still down, might as well have the damage dealt to him roll over each attempt if they are going to do something like that. But hey, I probably won't ever fight him again, and really don't care much what they do to him at this point. My concern is with upcoming content.

If Nim kills you during a phase, you restart at the beginning of that phase.

Then Nim's already gotten nerfed, as you used to start back at Phase 1 on him.

You stopped reading my post after the first word, right? You aren't interested in reasoned argument, just in impuning the manhood of anyone who disagrees with you.

Like I said, make some tough bosses. Make them optional. You guys with your strange desire for "challenge" can have more of it than you could ever want. The rest of the universe can continue with what exists. I'm not saying anything should be nerfed; Hell, why would I say that, I already beat it? However, if you make he game more "challenging" then you'll eventually run out of people willing to pay to be blocked from most of the content.

I read your post carefully, I even agree with some of it.

I never argued that players should be blocked from content. That's silly. I don't think there should be any serious difficulty in reaching entire areas of the game.

I never even argued that the main mission should be made harder, even though I do think it's stupidly easy. I'm mainly concerned that future content should offer some challenge for players who want it. I'm concerned that the devs will see the 'Nim's too hard' posts and every DLC boss will be made easy in a kneejerk reaction to that. I should have made that more clear in the title, though I thought it was clear from the content.

I'm not trying to be elitist. I'm not saying "this is easy for me, and if its not easy for you then you suck". I'm saying "this is easy for me, and that's making it not fun for me". Yeah, maybe a desire for challenge IS weird these days. It didn't use to be.

[Probert]

You are comparing a PC MMORPG to a console Shooter with MMO elements. They are not even remotely the same. I agree EQ1 was a great game but it was focused toward hardcore gamers where as Defiance isn’t.

P.S. I miss weaving 4-5 songs on my Bard. (before they implemented the “I win button" for bard songs)

Ur assuming I play on a console,which I don't. I'm on the PC, so when I play this game it is in direct competition for my time and money with the MMO games that I only play on the PC. I use console for COD and such.

So yes it's not exactly the same as EQ1 or other MMOs but I still put in that catorgy. Also the OP was talking abt difficult and access to content being able to beat certain things. I was just stating that other games limit access to content that "lesser" gamers can't get it. In my opinion Defiance is pretty easy game. I do die in SF abit tho in some emergencies. If u can't handle this game than I really don't know what to tell u. U sure wouldn't of been able to handle EQ1 and UO.

It's the WoW kiddies now. A monkey could play that game and they handed loot out like candy.

[Tharcion]

I think it would be silly to start over with his shield still down, might as well have the damage dealt to him roll over each attempt if they are going to do something like that.

I stated it as 3 phases since that's what people usually claim it is.

I actually think I'd agree, but there's a cut scene before the smelters start dropping. Restarting from there would at least get rid of the irritating chipping away at a pointless round of mattocks. You believe that stage is part of the challenge?

Genuine question. Given that they can be wasted by hiding behind a tank and sniping them with an AR, are they a challenge?

I'd say the challenging bit is judging the damage needed to kick the smelters into dropping Joe's shield. Frankly, once Joe jumps down he isn't any more a challenge than any Blacklung. Less so since he has no shield. Run around him ahead of his grenades with a shotgun. He'll drop. Is that a challenge?

Just to add: Define "challenge" for me, please. I've never understood what it means to game designers or the gamers who seem to want it. (Like Probert there.)

[Finish the Fight]

Ur assuming I play on a console,which I don't. I'm on the PC, so when I play this game it is in direct competition for my time and money with the MMO games that I only play on the PC. I use console for COD and such.

So yes it's not exactly the same as EQ1 or other MMOs but I still put in that catorgy. Also the OP was talking abt difficult and access to content being able to beat certain things. I was just stating that other games limit access to content that "lesser" gamers can't get it. In my opinion Defiance is pretty easy game. I do die in SF abit tho in some emergencies. If u can't handle this game than I really don't know what to tell u. U sure wouldn't of been able to handle EQ1 and UO.

It's the WoW kiddies now. A monkey could play that game and they handed loot out like candy.

I assumed nothing. The fact you play on PC is irrelevant because Defiance was built for console and ported to PC.

[Glacian]

I actually think I'd agree, but there's a cut scene before the smelters start dropping. Restarting from there would at least get rid of the irritating chipping away at a pointless round of mattocks. You believe that stage is part of the challenge?

No that part is just a timesink and the encounter would be better if replays started just after it. To be honest I'd forgotten about it.

I'd say the challenging bit is judging the damage needed to kick the smelters into dropping Joe's shield. Frankly, once Joe jumps down he isn't any more a challenge than any Blacklung. Less so since he has no shield. Run around him ahead of his grenades with a shotgun. He'll drop. Is that a challenge?

Agreed, that and staying alive between smelters. It can be very challenging depending on your gear and powers. I think I've died more on that 'phase' of Joe than in all of my attempts at Nim. But as you said, once he drops down he's easy.

Just to add: Define "challenge" for me, please. I've never understood what it means to game designers or the gamers who seem to want it. (Like Probert there.)

To me, a challenge is something that goes beyond ordinary, everyday levels of difficulty. Its also a scale, I would consider a boss that takes 2 attempts (one to learn its moves, one to beat it) to be easy, not challenging. 3-4 attempts, is a moderate challenge. 5+, very challenging. That's just my opinion of course.

People will of course get frustrated after a number of attempts. For me that's around 5-10 depending on how much crap I need to go through to get to the boss. Other's get frustrated if they don't win on the first attempt.

I consider any boss or end of mission encounter that takes only 1 attempt to be overly easy. The harder the encounter the greater the sense of accomplishment (yeah, yeah, its a false sense of accomplishment, but that's games). The single attempt bosses feel pointless, like I didn't have to do anything to earn the win.

Now lets be honest, how many Defiance boss encounters took you more than 1 try?

The part of boss encounters that I enjoy is figuring out how to beat them. If all I had to do was point and click then it wasn't fun. I liked learning all of Nim's moves and then developing a strategy that could beat him. Hell I even liked learning the ins and outs of the Jackleg encounter and developing a strategy that could beat that. And yeah, I realize that last bit probably makes me some kind of masochist.

[greatdividers]

Now lets be honest, how many Defiance boss encounters took you more than 1 try?

none.

unless you count pvp encounters against good players haha

[LALLY]

have jackleg joe and Nm been nerfed?

I think the difficulty of both were spot on, not over the top but a good challenge, I beat nim on my second or third attempt, be nice to see some harder stuff in the DLC though. maybe some really hard group bosses, also missions are far to easy.